Jan & Dean: Official Message Board for Jan Berry

JAN & DEAN => DON'T YOU JUST KNOW IT => Topic started by: jdman on September 29, 2010, 06:08:18 AM

Title: RRHOF
Post by: jdman on September 29, 2010, 06:08:18 AM
I just saw that Darlene Love(He's a Rebel) and Dr John are being considered for the Rock Hall of Fame. How can these artists go before Jan Berry and Jan & Dean? Darlene Love didn't write or produce anything that I know of and Dr John is famous down here in Louisiana, but do any of you know about him??
Is Jan & Dean even being looked at??
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on September 29, 2010, 07:50:44 AM
That does seem strange, I haven't even heard of those two you mentioned.

I guess its one of two things, either they are a good duo, wrongly under-rated or they are not so good and don't deserve the recognition.  I believe it is the first one but I hope there isn't some other reason why they don't seem to get noticed. 

Even Liberty/Capitol don't seem to do much with them, with only one official re-issue done on CD of the original albums and that seemed to be done by another label (One Way) and only manufactured by Capitol.  When you compare this with The Beach Boys re-issues they are 'official' Capitol releases and have been done twice over on CD over the years with new remastering each time.


 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: jdman on September 29, 2010, 09:55:53 AM
Wintersdawn, thanks for the reply. I don't want to compare Jan & Dean's re-issues to that of the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys were much more commercial and will get more attention. I just don't get why these other little artists get more love than a duo that had many more hits, influenced the entire West Coast sound and punk rock. Arranged and produced his own records plus co-wrote most of them. Taught Brian Wilson, Gary Zeckley, Phil Sloan and others how to produce a clean record. Yeah, Dr John and Darlene Love get in before Jan Berry!!!! Are you kidding me??
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on September 29, 2010, 10:22:19 AM
I think it would have lifted their profile a bit if Liberty/Capitol had done more with the releases but of course I do agree that The Beach Boys are in a different league commercially.

I also agree that Jan Berry's credentials would seem to put him in good stead for the RRHOF.  I wonder if after his accident Jan & Dean sort of faded out and that is part of the reason?  Still, I would have thought that their achievements would still be 'known' to the powers that be who choose candidates for the RRHOF (I'm not sure how this is arrived at, anyone know what the process involves?).
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: woodshedstudio on September 30, 2010, 05:22:22 AM
Dr. John had one huge hit in the early 70's... maybe beyond that he might have influenced a number of piano players. Not really sure he'd even be considered a "rock-and-roller".

Darlene Love on the other hand sang many lead vocals (credited and mostly uncredited) on many a hit song. And did countless backup vox for other artists. I think for much of the 60's (and probably 70's) she was a very in demand session singer (much like the wrecking crew). I can, at least, see her nomination and wouldn't begrudge her induction.

Having said all that, J&D are a no-brainer... but then, I'm not sure there is a brain present at the HOF. Am I to read this correctly,  J&D have never even been nominated??

matt
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on September 30, 2010, 11:06:16 AM
Maybe it's because Jan & Dean tended to jump on the bandwagon of other peoples ideas and didn't forge their own sound/approach i.e. surf & car songs.  Maybe if they had moved forward with their own sound after their doo-wop period (assuming that was original) they would have more credibility?

Also maybe it was the novelty/comedy factor in some of their songs that meant that people didn't take them seriously.

If true, it is a shame as I believe these qualities shouldn't preclude them from being nominated and indeed chosen for the RRHoF.

 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: jdman on September 30, 2010, 12:40:53 PM
I know Darlene Love did a lot of songs as a session singer. I'm not putting her down.
As far as bandwagon, I think most artists jump on some bandwagon. Elvis copied a lot of songs. The Beach Boys sang about a new subject but took sounds from Jan & Dean and esp Chuck Berry( listen to Surfin USA and Fun Fun Fun and compare to Sweet Little 16 and Roll Over Beetoven). It's hard to be completely original. But Jan's production techniques were largely original. Jennie Lee, I never heard anything like that. Pop Symphony-original. I think the bandwagon thing is over-stated.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on September 30, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
Jan & Dean was the CA sound a couple of years before the Beach Boy's .
I' ve said it here before and I'll say it again . They are not in the Hall due to politics and songs like Universal Coward (pro Namm song).
Jan Berry did more than most of the artist in the Hall . He was the ONLY artist in the R&R  era to write,  arrange,  produce and sang on his records.
He was responsible for getting together the best Rhythm Section in the biz " The Wrecking Crew. " Like Buddy Holly and Otis Redding no one will ever know how far he and Dean couldve gone [Hit TV show] ..... But you never hear that about Jan not in the media like Buddy . Here yes. But thats us , fans to the max.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on September 30, 2010, 01:54:06 PM
I' ve said it here before and I'll say it again . They are not in the Hall due to politics and songs like Universal Coward (pro Namm song).

An interesting thought, however do you 'know' that those who choose the RRHoF candidates are anti-Vietnam and so therefore would be offended by a song such as Universal Coward?  Seems to me that along with 'Only A Boy' that such songs would be quite patriot to the U.S. 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Ban n Bean on September 30, 2010, 09:33:10 PM
Let's see: The RnRHoF messed up royally with The Dave Clark 5, they messed up with Jan & Dean, they continue to mess up.  No reason to believe the situation will change.  The list of those artists becoming eligible through 2019 reads like a horror story but not quite as bad as the horror story of worthy artists dying before they're inducted because of prideful politics, ratings, media attention, whatever...

End of rant.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on September 30, 2010, 10:21:45 PM
Picked up an issue of Rolling Stone in the last decade ? Nothing but politics. And anti right at that. I've seen no other legit offerings to explain why an artist like J&D would be excluded .
Jan would almost deserve it for the Second Phase portion of his comeback alone . The true def of Rock and Roll will never die !
The sales
The hits
The inovativeness
The inventivness
Popularity
 I rest my case

Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Mark A. Moore on September 30, 2010, 11:17:08 PM
Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone is the Gate-keeper of the Hall of Fame.

Lots of Left-leaning people do not agree with the HOF's "choices" . . . the whole thing is BS -- even if J&D eventually get in.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on October 01, 2010, 01:04:55 AM
Great conversation!  So glad I joined this forum, even though I am a relatively new Jan & Dean fan. 

Sounds like this RRHoF issue is made more complex if decisions are driven by politics.  I guess Jan & Dean may get in when this changes and perhaps different people are in charge. 

So candidates/inductees into the RRHoF are chosen only when they fit into a certain box, but then I would doubt that many would get in?
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 01, 2010, 02:14:42 PM
THey have a habit of seeing how many times they can put the same artist in.
" This years RRHOF's humanitarian induction goes to BONO" .......
Can anyone tell me if Tommy Tedesco has gotten in as sidemen cat yet ?
Oh and one more "reason" I was listening to Jim Bohanon not sure of the spelling interviewing Brian Wilson the other night and a caller asked if there was any artist not in the hall that should be . His reply was basicallly none that he could think of . As a member dont they vote for inductees ? Could it be he doesnt pay enough attention to know J&D arent in yet?
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Bitman on October 04, 2010, 10:47:48 PM
Jan & Dean's politics have nothing to do with them being excluded.  These numbskulls on the hall of fame board have hardly heard of Jan & Dean, let alone know where they stood politically or that Jan recorded a couple pro-war songs.  That having been said, I've said it here before - Jan & Dean will likely never enter the hall.  Not that they don't deserve it and there are plenty of other artists deserving as well that won't make it.  But look at this year's nominees...LL Cool J?  Seriously?  Heck, Miles Davis is already in.  Here's the deal.  The nominating committee is made of ultra-hip record industry types.  They want to sell product, so they nominate acts that are largely still active or have a major hipness factor that's going to move product for them.  They throw in a couple of 50's/60's acts to make it seem legit.  But, basically these guys on the board think they're too cool for school, so this is the crap that's going to get nominated every year.  The rules state you have to have released a record 25 years ago for consideration.  The unwritten rule is if your first record came out over 35 years ago you can pretty much forget it.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: jdman on October 05, 2010, 05:49:11 AM
Good point Bitman. I just need to not stress about the Hall of Fame. I guess it's just bullshit anyway. The thing is, even if Jan wasn't one of the best producers out of the West Coast, it seems like all significant acts from the first 10 years of rock should be in. Jan & Dean were making top 10 hits when Buddy Holly was still rockin. I think all acts that had top 10 hits in the fifties and sixties should be a no brainer. But I'm done with that now. I guess it really doesn't matter anyway. We know the truth. And we have the music!!
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 05, 2010, 09:00:40 PM
Bitman you have a lot of valid points. And I mostly agree with you . This hall has a problem no other hall has and that's no respect for the history of what they are honoring . Look at the other halls . They've been around alot longer and still they put in "OLDTIMERS" from the 20's.
On the political side , you must understand these are not your run of the mil voters who every 4 years look at "The Man and not the party" these are LEFTIST .  They are as much or more to the Left as Rush is to the right.  If you dont believe me see who gets in first .
J&D
or
Crosby Stills and Nash ,  C S and Young , C S N and Y
Crosby solo Nash solo Stills solo Young solo.
Hell even a one hit wonder like The Beastie Boy's have been nom twice.
What next Milli Vanilli !
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Bitman on October 05, 2010, 11:24:32 PM
Just by its nature, rock and roll itself is pretty liberal/leftist.  How many right wing rockers are out there, period?  Ted Nugent is about the only one I can think of.  Does he deserve to be in the rrhof?  Ahead of some who are already in, absolutely.  But he's not as deserving as many who have been snubbed.  Elvis was pretty conservative and he's in...although he has to be.   I won't argue that the committee is leftist, I'm just saying their only motivation is the almighty dollar.  If an artist can sell more CD's or downloads from the boost a nomination or induction gets them, the committee will give them the nod.  Hey, at least Hal Blaine is in!
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on October 07, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
Something's been bothering me since posting about Jan & Dean getting on the 'surf & car' bandwagon and I am starting to doubt what I originally thought.  Did they 'jump on it' or were they doing it at the same time as the Beach Boys? 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: jdman on October 08, 2010, 04:22:52 AM
Well, the Beach Boys sang about it first. However, surf music had been around in instrumental form before the BB's. I've read one historian who claims the first vocal surf song was actually Baby Talk. Jan & Dean definitely influenced the surf sound but the BB's were the first to write lyrics and sing about surf and drag. Jan & Dean were right behind them. I don't know if Jumping on the bandwagon is accurate because Jan & Dean were a big part of why surf music became so popular. It really wasn't an established style of music until after J*D and The BB's were both riding the wave. That's my opinion, anyway.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: surferbee on October 08, 2010, 09:44:22 AM
Was it Frank Kisco - sorry I can't remember - someone did a break down of artists in the RRHOF - those with x number of hits. Those who wrote. Those who arranged. Those who produced. With each addition there were less and lees artists with Jan and Dean emerging sas strong contendors. Can't remember wherre I read this.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 09, 2010, 12:21:23 PM
Surferbee I believe it's in Mark Thomas Passmores book . I think its Doc Roc Kelly. And I believe he says Jan was the only one in the R&R era to do so.
I really dont think Jan thought of his music as "surf music" as much as he thought of it as The CA Sound. Or just  a form of R&R . Which I believe includes many different sounds .
DOO WOP, Rock a Billy,  Bo Diddley/ Buddy Holly, Soul, Mercy Beat Pyscodylic [sic]. ETC....
And Bitman I understand what your saying about the money But I'm really not sure how Darlen Love or the countless 1 hit wonders could make more money off CD sales bought on by their induction than J&D . Much more to choose from . Or how most artist could be a big boost to the Hall since It's a private invite only affair and the showing on VH1 is done so much in so many day's the ratings really dont matter. In other words I dont think The Bestie Boys would make a dime more than Jan & Dean  for the hall. I think just the reverse . 

Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Salzburg Surf Scene on October 10, 2010, 05:58:00 AM
I think issues like politics can and do play a roll - although how much they know about J&D's politics is another question (c.f. the discussion on the Folk n Roll thread, about whether Universal Coward is actually a pro-War song, or a satire).

There is also the issue of how general attitudes to J&D have developed over the years. They are simply - in Europe at least - not a "cool" band. Those who have heard of them (which is not many over here) associate them with the BBs (also not a cool band), and the generally maligned music of the early 60s (the general preference for late Beatles over early Beatles, for example, reflects a general perception that the music of the late 60s is just cooler). When people do hear J&D, they often don't get it (i.e. they mistake the humour and subtlety for a lack of quality).

Finally, a more depressing point is the state of Jan after the accident. I have sometimes wondered what would have happened, in terms of the J&D image, had Jan died in '66. There are plenty of examples of distinctly average acts who secured immortality by dying young. There just is something irresistable (in a marketting sense) in the "live fast die young" image. But battling disability, while moving and admirable, just isn't "cool", it doesn't fit the Rock n Roll stereotype - which is I suspect one of the reasons why J&D so quickly disappeared from the musical consciousness. The halfwits in the RRHoF can't see past that - although I hope the release of Carnival might help to change that.

There is a very touching scene in Bob Greene's "When we get to Surf City", when Dean asks Bob about the RRHoF, saying that it would be good for Jan. Too late, in that sense. And to be honest, when you see the trite that gets in, I wonder if J&D carry greater credibility by not being part of it. As jdman says, we have the music!
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: surferbee on October 10, 2010, 06:17:20 AM
I understand this point of view but the timing of Jan's accident was particularly problematic. The Beach Boys gained serious credibility because of Pet Sounds and the Beatles Sergeant Pepper (although probably there were other albums that secured this.) Jan's injury occurred just before sixties music started taking itself seriously and was thus taken seriously by others. As a talented arranger and producer and one who loved experimenting with sound - Jan would have been well-placed to have produced his own 'serious' album. Carnival of Sound gives us some hints but his mental fragility at the time and his problems with communication meant that - in my opinion - we have only a partial insight. My guess is that if Jan had managed to produce and market an album of this nature then - like the Beach Boys and the Beatles - his earlier work would have been reassessed. I don't know the politics of the RRHOF but their logic is mystifying to an outsider. It would be a great publicity boost for their legacy.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 11, 2010, 10:19:52 AM
I agree if Jan had died . He would've been a much bigger legend . And as I believe Dean said .
One day we were on the radiio and the next day we werent . Speaking of the accident and musical style change . That happened at the time. I dont believe it's a satirical song . Due to what Dean has said about his refusing to sing on it . Wanting to be apolitical and not get into the politics of the time in their feel good music. I also believe the american media chooses to prop up mentally ill people as some thing wonderful and genius as opposed to a brain injured person like Jan . By the way for some of you who are new to J&D . After the movie came out.
Jan and Dean were huge in the late 70's and early 80's . Their draw at the venues they played amusment parks , fairs .... rivaled even the acts that just came off their 15 min and were still a known name to the younger crowd. These guys were not just a 60's only act. Alot of new fans were born after Jan's wreck . And made at these concerts. And they were Jan and Dean not some fakes like most of the 50's 60's groups that you thought you saw in the last few years.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Mike on October 11, 2010, 09:07:07 PM
I really appreciate the passion! 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Bitman on October 13, 2010, 10:11:34 AM
I guess I should've clarified...it's not about making money for the hall...it's about making money for the record labels.  Most of the board members are affiliated with some label.  Inducting the Beastie Boys will make a ton more than J&D could for the labels.  Darlene Love has the Spector connection and sang on virtually all of his hits.  They can slap a RRHOF sticker on any Spector-produced CD with Darlene on it in any music store and maybe sell a few more copies. 
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: wintersdawn on October 13, 2010, 11:23:04 AM
Well, the Beach Boys sang about it first. However, surf music had been around in instrumental form before the BB's. I've read one historian who claims the first vocal surf song was actually Baby Talk. Jan & Dean definitely influenced the surf sound but the BB's were the first to write lyrics and sing about surf and drag. Jan & Dean were right behind them. I don't know if Jumping on the bandwagon is accurate because Jan & Dean were a big part of why surf music became so popular. It really wasn't an established style of music until after J*D and The BB's were both riding the wave. That's my opinion, anyway.

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 14, 2010, 01:27:34 PM
Oh ok . Does anyone know if they did that [sticker thing] with Hal and Earl. You know featuring " RRHOF member Hal Blaine on drums"? And arent these record co's big multi mega corps that have a few labels under them? I must say i dont know who J&D are under. But I'm sure someone is invested .
I can hear The Bestie Boy's  Intro now "In 19?? these guy's had a big hit song Fight for your right to party. [I think thats the name] Then they did some concerts . And so we are inducting them. "
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Mark A. Moore on October 14, 2010, 09:14:31 PM
I must say i dont know who J&D are under."

The Nevins-Kirshner/Screen Gems/Liberty material '61-'66 is held by EMI-Capitol. They own both the masters and the publishing for that portion of the catalog. The publishing for Jan's outside compositions released on Colpix, Smash, and Del-Fi, is also held by EMI-Capitol.

The  earlier stuff '58-'61 is here and there . . .

The Jan & Arnie publishing is held by an underling of Universal.

Publishing for the Dore material is split between several companies, including Jan Berry's own Fiji Music.

For the  Carnival of Sound era material '66-'68 the masters are owned by Warner Bros., and the publishing by EMI-Capitol.

Lou Adler owns the masters for Jan's '70s releases on Ode and A&M. Jan's Fiji Music and others hold the publishing.

Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: owen on October 15, 2010, 05:50:52 AM
I honestly don't know what the fuss is about. The Hall of Fame is not impartial, its a marketing exercise set up for about the same reason as that street in Hollywood where they have the hand-prints. In Europe few have even heard of it, so what's the deal.

People in this thread are alternating between saying its an industry scam and its an outrage they haven't inducted J&D. These points cancel each other out.

The RRHOF is not "official". Its just one of many self-publicising awards, with opportunities for sponsorship, free parties, and marketing boosts: Q Magazine has one, for example, complete with an annual ceremony with half an issue of the magazine devoted to it.

Kerrang, I believe, has a Heavy Metal Hall of Fame, or something very similar.

We don't have to lobby anyone. We can set up the Surf Music Hall of Fame ourselves, if we want to.

If we did that then we could induct the late great Dick Dale, who has not I notice been inducted into the RRHOF either.

;)
Owem
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: Ban n Bean on October 15, 2010, 08:30:05 AM
Late, great?  (kidding, yes?) Mr. Dale is still alive and touring!
Title: Re: RRHOF
Post by: 2dean2 on October 16, 2010, 01:14:17 PM
Owen it's the PRINCIPAL of the thing . It may be self serving to whatever the hall is about .
IE: NFL MLB NBA NHL NASCAR..... But in those hall 's they go by stats and performance. Not some political or potential future sales.  And they follow certain guidelines even when unpopular [Pete Rose will never get in at least as long as he is alive.]  Surf music hall neat idea but soon you'll put in every surf band real or fake. I heard a few of those "BANDS" were just studio players with some good looking guys on the cover . Tommy Tedesco was a fat Italian . Carol K was a girl...... I could be misinformed by the way. I would suggest 1 act a year.