Jan & Dean: Official Message Board for Jan Berry

JAN & DEAN => DON'T YOU JUST KNOW IT => Topic started by: Admin on December 20, 2011, 03:19:48 PM

Title: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Admin on December 20, 2011, 03:19:48 PM
Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf City USA

http://rockabillynblues.blogspot.com/2011/12/dean-torrence-garage-doo-wop-with-jan.html (http://rockabillynblues.blogspot.com/2011/12/dean-torrence-garage-doo-wop-with-jan.html)

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For a good summary of what happened with "Save For A Rainy Day" and "Carnival of Sound" . . . read this article, based on record company and legal documentation from the '60s.

Dean had a chance for his album to be released in 1967, but he turned it down:

Rainy Days In A Carnival of Sound: The Lost Renaissance of Jan & Dean (http://www.carnivalofsound.com/carnival-article-moore.html)

Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Su
Post by: jdman on December 21, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
Quote
As you all know, Brian has made the most wonderful announcement (from what I've read) and it sure is cool.  What a great Christmas gift I interpret it as to people who have cared about the Beach Boys.  :  )

And Dean has just given one of the best interviews ever.....

That's another COOL Christmas gift, too (to me....that's my interpretation):  (God bless him!!)

God bless them both...and their families
http://rockabillynblues.blogspot.com/2011/12/dean-torrence-garage-doo-wop-with-jan.html (http://rockabillynblues.blogspot.com/2011/12/dean-torrence-garage-doo-wop-with-jan.html)

That's a great article Mark. Also, I like the other one as well Mary. Thank ya'll.

I'm currently looking for the Popsicle article that Mark put on here a while back.
Mark, is that article still available to read. It's been awhile and I forgot some of the details.

Thanks
Title: Re: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living i
Post by: Admin on December 21, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
That's a great article Mark. Also, I like the other one as well Mary. Thank ya'll.

I'm currently looking for the Popsicle article that Mark put on here a while back.
Mark, is that article still available to read. It's been awhile and I forgot some of the details.

Thanks

It's no longer on the Website, but the "Popsicle" / "Norwegian Wood" clarification is currently available in the liner notes I wrote for the Capitol Records digital re-issue of the "Popsicle" LP.

The forthcoming Sessionography will also offer some new insight on the "Popsicle" situation.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: 2dean2 on December 23, 2011, 06:40:51 PM
I also liked this interview . It must be hard people thinking you should feel a certain way . Not realizing the other person may be totally different . I understand his feelings about Carnival of Sound too. Maybe if it was more of a Jan Berry the writer , writing for other artist or for Dean the solo singer ( with back ground vocalist) . Things might have worked out better after the accident.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ;)
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: positivemusic on December 28, 2011, 08:09:30 AM
Normally, I feel Dean gets a bum rap, but he seems somewhat revisionist here in regards to Carnival Of Sound. He says he wasn't really into the psychedelic scene, but wasn't he pretty involved with Brian Wilson during the Smile era?
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2011, 12:08:38 PM

More and more, I think Dean is out of touch, and hasn't been a very good custodian of J&D's historical legacy.

DEAN: "Yeah, but those are the nut-jobs.  Thatís what Rhino was shooting for . . . Janís was made for the hardcore Jan fans that would buy just about anything he would do and/or those nut-jobs that absolutely love something thatís unreleased.  Quite honestly , the reason why most things arenít released is because it ainít very good.  They donít see it that way."

See, here's the thing. Aside from Dean's very limited self-released version of "Save For A Rainy Day" in '66, his own album remained commerically unreleased and unavailable to the masses for 30 years until 1996 . . . when the "nut-jobs" (as Dean calls the fans) were finally able to get it in a nice package. Artisically, both "Save For A Rainy Day" and "Carnival of Sound" have their pros and cons . . . but maybe Dean thinks the nut-jobs that bought "Rainy Day" are better than the nut-jobs who bought "Carnival."


DEAN: "I just wish a real collection of old Jan & Dean hits catalog would come out in such a nice package.  Iím always scratching my head.  To me, almost everything is 180⁰  from where it should be.  But Iíve learned to live with that.  Thatís been going on for 30-40 years.  Iím used to it now.  Why would you spend that much effort for that, when that effort could be hit for a real hits package?  Weíve never had a box set.  Iím too stubborn to go and try to force it down anyoneís throat because Iíll waste a bunch of time and it wonít happen anyway."

Sure, "Carnival" got a better package, and better liner notes, than "Rainy Day." But I've been clamoring for a J&D Box Set for years now . . . and Dean hasn't exactly been supportive.


DEAN: "I made sure that everything in our merchandise section was one of a kind or very rare.  Nothing is under $500.  Thereís a surf board for $3,500.  So you sell 1 or 2 a year, thatís fine.  Then the nut-jobs are very happy about that.  Unfortunately, the nut-jobs donít have a lot of money (laughs)."

Dean, my friend . . . It's the nut-jobs who are going to buy a J&D Box Set . . . if there ever is one.

This whole situation frustrates me, because Dean won't meet me half way on a cool project like the Sessionography. He doesn't seem to have any interest in projects like this that will illuminate the pre-accident era ó the original J&D era . . . the one that really matters ó in a way never seen before. A project that will benefit their historical legacy.

I don't need Dean's participation to pull it off ó it's well underway ó  but it would sure be damned nice to have it, on a number of levels. Not to mention the fans (I mean nut-jobs) appreciating it.

But I've ruffled Dean's feathers, and I can't live it down . . . Such is life  :)

Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2011, 07:26:27 PM

Dean should also take a good look at the overall "Carnival" packaging and understand just how good a J&D Box Set would be . . . if the right people are involved.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: 2dean2 on December 28, 2011, 08:03:29 PM
I must say sometimes I think Dean listened to Doris Day's Kay Sirrah Sirrah a little too much.
I also wonder if he was somewhat kidding . I hear his Jan & Dean and other collections are very well cataloged and very well maintained. So he must care a lot about it.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2011, 08:25:22 PM
I must say sometimes I think Dean listened to Doris Day's Kay Sirrah Sirrah a little too much.
I also wonder if he was somewhat kidding . I hear his Jan & Dean and other collections are very well cataloged and very well maintained. So he must care a lot about it.

I seriously doubt Dean was kidding.

But I would agree . . . in that Dean's an artist (in more than one sense of the word), and I would expect his J&D collection to be immaculate.

Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: surferbee on December 29, 2011, 04:58:27 AM
The Carnival of Sound album package is an art form in itself. I would have though that Dean would have been proud to have contributed to its design.

I do agree with Mark - but isn't this both typical of how Jan and Dean were and a reason why their legacy has never been fully understood or appreciated. The sessionography is something that you would have expected Dean to back 100%.

I do wonder though (at the risk of further exaggerating any splits) that Dean might be worried that the sessionography will confirm that he wasn't on some of the records.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: 2dean2 on December 29, 2011, 07:28:15 AM
Punk Rockers from the 70's , refer to Jan & Dean as the First Punk Rocker's .
Maybe their right. In a ireverent kinda way.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Admin on December 29, 2011, 08:47:11 AM
The Carnival of Sound album package is an art form in itself. I would have though that Dean would have been proud to have contributed to its design.

I do agree with Mark - but isn't this both typical of how Jan and Dean were and a reason why their legacy has never been fully understood or appreciated. The sessionography is something that you would have expected Dean to back 100%.

I do wonder though (at the risk of further exaggerating any splits) that Dean might be worried that the sessionography will confirm that he wasn't on some of the records.

I don't think so. There are only a handful of music scores that notate vocal parts assigned to individuals. The Sloan falsettos are well known. So there's really nothing new there.

Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Bitman on January 03, 2012, 03:44:38 PM
DEAN: "I just wish a real collection of old Jan & Dean hits catalog would come out in such a nice package."

Huh?

I can't think of a nicer package than the singles set Collector's Choice released a couple years ago.  All mono - the way Jan intended them to be heard on good ol' AM radio.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: jdman on January 04, 2012, 04:53:39 AM
I agree Bitman!. That was a great collection and package! In fact, it was the top 5 selling CD that year. It stayed on Collector's top 200 chart for 3 years.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: 2dean2 on January 05, 2012, 08:54:26 AM
On Dean maybe not wanting it known that he
may not have sung on some hits.
The Movie DMC has I believe two examples of Jan telling Dean he sings off key.
Jennie Lee and I think
when their having the You'd still be Pumpin Gas aurgument.
I've always liked that . Wonder if he ever did tell him that.
And I'm still waiting to use the line .
That wouldnt even pay my laundry bill ! :o
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: The Surfer Joe on January 05, 2012, 02:42:47 PM
"You sing the high notes & I do everything else"....and then after the Terrible Crash...See...he still wants to be a rock star !
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Kentucky Surfer on February 10, 2012, 07:08:51 AM
An interesting interview.

As one of the "nut jobs" with no money to buy any of the memorabilia from the website, I think I would still find a way to buy a well put-together box set on Jan & Dean.  The singles set from Collector's Choice and the One-Way double CD sets of the original albums (with the original stereo mixes) are my go-to discs for listening to Jan & Dean.

I am a second generation J&D fan, and I literally built my collection from flea markets and yard sales in the pre-CD era.  I had the pleasure of seeing Jan & Dean in concert in Kentucky in the 1980s, and that was a great moment as  a fan.

I truly enjoy any new piece of information on J&D, whether it be the long-awaited "Carnival of Sound", the 1996 issue of "Save For A Rainy Day", or the great DVD of "The TAMI Show".  And I will definitiely enjoy the "forthcoming sessionography" ;)

It is unfortunate that there is tension between Admin and Dean Torrence.  Interestingly enough, both of them referred to 1958-1966 as the important era in Jan & Dean's career.  Both Dean and Admin would love to see a box set.  Both Dean and Admin see themselves as custodians of the legacy of Jan & Dean.

So why the rub?

I feel that Dean considers it his legacy because he was THERE!  Dean had made a comment in several interviews that the friendship between he and Jan transcended the music.  That comment always strikes me as being a very sincere observation on the relationship between J&D.  So I think Dean is protective of that legacy.

I feel that Admin is trying to speak for Jan, who could only speak for himself with great difficulty after April 1966, and now cannot speak for himself at all.  That, too, is an important legacy

It would be great for the sake of the fans, who now cannot see J&D in concert and have only their recordings, if a well thought-out and well documented box set was developed and released.  I think Dean's first-hand accounts are essential to such a project.  The Admin has worked hard on a sessionography, which is also essential to a viable box set.   Everyone would benefit by working together.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: RockabillyNBlues on February 10, 2012, 07:32:58 AM
Well said Kentucky Surfer (love the name by the way...I'm from Kentucky myself).  Thanks for reading the interview.  Dean was a pleasure to talk to and a highlight for me from 2011.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: Mark A. Moore on February 13, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
Kentucky Surfer,

Working together is absolutely the right thing to do . . . but it has proven to be a very difficult thing to do. I have been advised time and again to never pursue any kind of working relationship with Dean. But I still think it's the right thing to do, for certain projects.

It's true that I've done my share to make a touchy situation even worse in some cases. But I also felt it was necessary in some cases . . . when I could tell, from detailed contemporary documentation, that Jan was being misrepresented.

And sure, I can be abbrasive . . . and yes, I use colorful language at times. It's called engaging and speaking normally. Believe me, I'm tame compared to some of Jan's living contemporaries.

Dean is used to saying anything about J&D without someone like me questioning him, based on hardcore contemporary documentation on Jan's career (from the '60s). And since Dean was not the driving force behind the act, it has been contentious.

When you consider the people that Dean WILL work with, it's only with people who will ask him questions and print his answers as gospel -- without question, and without any allegiance to the actual history, or how it might be misrepresenting Jan.

Jan couldn't truly speak for himself after April '66 . . . and Dean became accustomed to saying anything and everything, seemingly thinking that because of Jan's mental condition, no one would ever know the difference.

So someone like me, and my research, upsets Dean's applecart, so to speak.

And I consider this a normal dynamic -- not surprising at all.

I have an olive branch that can reach from here all the way to Orange County . . . But I've come to realize that I'm really not the problem. I'm just an excuse at this point. In North Myrtle Beach last May, I tried to share some things from Jan's personal collection that were directly releated to Dean . . . but Dean wasn't the least bit interested.

It was a really fun weekend. I hung out with David Beard, Dan Yoe, and David Marks and his wife Carrie. It was a blast. But Dean was a fóking killjoy. If it had been anyone but me presenting Dean-related artifacts from Jan's personal collection, Dean would have been all over it. (Those items are now posted on the main Website).

So I just have to keep doing my thing. The Sessionography is a monster . . . and Dean will benefit from its publication.
Title: Re: Dean Torrence: garage doo-wop with Jan, football with Elvis and living in Surf C
Post by: surferbee on February 14, 2012, 03:43:18 AM
As someone who has advocated for Jan's legacy for years I am really looking forward to the sessionography. I guess it will answer a number of questions. I had always worried that the lack of historically accurate information on Jan and Dean was because I live in the UK where our radio limited their impact. I have since discovered that this is largely because Jan's accident robbed him of the ability to tell his own story and then Dean's freedom to recast the story his own way. As we have said before on this board this is not unique in the arts let alone in the world of rock music where drink and drugs have an equally damaging effect on memory and the ability to articulate. Just consider Brian Wilson and Mike Love. (Interesting that Mike and Dean ended up working together.)
History is reconstructed from memories but needs documented evidence to root those memories. Dean is not the first or the last. My sadness as a very long-standing fan is that in the final analysis it hurts not just Jan or Dean but 'Jan and Dean'. In my view Dean would only benefit from Jan being acknowledged as the main writer, usually lead singer, producer and arranger of the band during their peak years. I remember how I felt when I heard that the Beach Boys didn't play on many of their great records. That hasn't stopped me being a Beach Boys fan. The sessionography and Jan's biography are the opportunity to rescue Jan but in so doing will promote Dean as well.
Personally, I can't wait.