Author Topic: RRHOF  (Read 13807 times)

jdman

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2010, 05:49:11 AM »
Good point Bitman. I just need to not stress about the Hall of Fame. I guess it's just bullshit anyway. The thing is, even if Jan wasn't one of the best producers out of the West Coast, it seems like all significant acts from the first 10 years of rock should be in. Jan & Dean were making top 10 hits when Buddy Holly was still rockin. I think all acts that had top 10 hits in the fifties and sixties should be a no brainer. But I'm done with that now. I guess it really doesn't matter anyway. We know the truth. And we have the music!!

2dean2

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2010, 09:00:40 PM »
Bitman you have a lot of valid points. And I mostly agree with you . This hall has a problem no other hall has and that's no respect for the history of what they are honoring . Look at the other halls . They've been around alot longer and still they put in "OLDTIMERS" from the 20's.
On the political side , you must understand these are not your run of the mil voters who every 4 years look at "The Man and not the party" these are LEFTIST .  They are as much or more to the Left as Rush is to the right.  If you dont believe me see who gets in first .
J&D
or
Crosby Stills and Nash ,  C S and Young , C S N and Y
Crosby solo Nash solo Stills solo Young solo.
Hell even a one hit wonder like The Beastie Boy's have been nom twice.
What next Milli Vanilli !

Bitman

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2010, 11:24:32 PM »
Just by its nature, rock and roll itself is pretty liberal/leftist.  How many right wing rockers are out there, period?  Ted Nugent is about the only one I can think of.  Does he deserve to be in the rrhof?  Ahead of some who are already in, absolutely.  But he's not as deserving as many who have been snubbed.  Elvis was pretty conservative and he's in...although he has to be.   I won't argue that the committee is leftist, I'm just saying their only motivation is the almighty dollar.  If an artist can sell more CD's or downloads from the boost a nomination or induction gets them, the committee will give them the nod.  Hey, at least Hal Blaine is in!

wintersdawn

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2010, 02:19:11 PM »
Something's been bothering me since posting about Jan & Dean getting on the 'surf & car' bandwagon and I am starting to doubt what I originally thought.  Did they 'jump on it' or were they doing it at the same time as the Beach Boys? 

jdman

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 04:22:52 AM »
Well, the Beach Boys sang about it first. However, surf music had been around in instrumental form before the BB's. I've read one historian who claims the first vocal surf song was actually Baby Talk. Jan & Dean definitely influenced the surf sound but the BB's were the first to write lyrics and sing about surf and drag. Jan & Dean were right behind them. I don't know if Jumping on the bandwagon is accurate because Jan & Dean were a big part of why surf music became so popular. It really wasn't an established style of music until after J*D and The BB's were both riding the wave. That's my opinion, anyway.

surferbee

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 09:44:22 AM »
Was it Frank Kisco - sorry I can't remember - someone did a break down of artists in the RRHOF - those with x number of hits. Those who wrote. Those who arranged. Those who produced. With each addition there were less and lees artists with Jan and Dean emerging sas strong contendors. Can't remember wherre I read this.

2dean2

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2010, 12:21:23 PM »
Surferbee I believe it's in Mark Thomas Passmores book . I think its Doc Roc Kelly. And I believe he says Jan was the only one in the R&R era to do so.
I really dont think Jan thought of his music as "surf music" as much as he thought of it as The CA Sound. Or just  a form of R&R . Which I believe includes many different sounds .
DOO WOP, Rock a Billy,  Bo Diddley/ Buddy Holly, Soul, Mercy Beat Pyscodylic [sic]. ETC....
And Bitman I understand what your saying about the money But I'm really not sure how Darlen Love or the countless 1 hit wonders could make more money off CD sales bought on by their induction than J&D . Much more to choose from . Or how most artist could be a big boost to the Hall since It's a private invite only affair and the showing on VH1 is done so much in so many day's the ratings really dont matter. In other words I dont think The Bestie Boys would make a dime more than Jan & Dean  for the hall. I think just the reverse . 


Salzburg Surf Scene

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2010, 05:58:00 AM »
I think issues like politics can and do play a roll - although how much they know about J&D's politics is another question (c.f. the discussion on the Folk n Roll thread, about whether Universal Coward is actually a pro-War song, or a satire).

There is also the issue of how general attitudes to J&D have developed over the years. They are simply - in Europe at least - not a "cool" band. Those who have heard of them (which is not many over here) associate them with the BBs (also not a cool band), and the generally maligned music of the early 60s (the general preference for late Beatles over early Beatles, for example, reflects a general perception that the music of the late 60s is just cooler). When people do hear J&D, they often don't get it (i.e. they mistake the humour and subtlety for a lack of quality).

Finally, a more depressing point is the state of Jan after the accident. I have sometimes wondered what would have happened, in terms of the J&D image, had Jan died in '66. There are plenty of examples of distinctly average acts who secured immortality by dying young. There just is something irresistable (in a marketting sense) in the "live fast die young" image. But battling disability, while moving and admirable, just isn't "cool", it doesn't fit the Rock n Roll stereotype - which is I suspect one of the reasons why J&D so quickly disappeared from the musical consciousness. The halfwits in the RRHoF can't see past that - although I hope the release of Carnival might help to change that.

There is a very touching scene in Bob Greene's "When we get to Surf City", when Dean asks Bob about the RRHoF, saying that it would be good for Jan. Too late, in that sense. And to be honest, when you see the trite that gets in, I wonder if J&D carry greater credibility by not being part of it. As jdman says, we have the music!

surferbee

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2010, 06:17:20 AM »
I understand this point of view but the timing of Jan's accident was particularly problematic. The Beach Boys gained serious credibility because of Pet Sounds and the Beatles Sergeant Pepper (although probably there were other albums that secured this.) Jan's injury occurred just before sixties music started taking itself seriously and was thus taken seriously by others. As a talented arranger and producer and one who loved experimenting with sound - Jan would have been well-placed to have produced his own 'serious' album. Carnival of Sound gives us some hints but his mental fragility at the time and his problems with communication meant that - in my opinion - we have only a partial insight. My guess is that if Jan had managed to produce and market an album of this nature then - like the Beach Boys and the Beatles - his earlier work would have been reassessed. I don't know the politics of the RRHOF but their logic is mystifying to an outsider. It would be a great publicity boost for their legacy.

2dean2

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2010, 10:19:52 AM »
I agree if Jan had died . He would've been a much bigger legend . And as I believe Dean said .
One day we were on the radiio and the next day we werent . Speaking of the accident and musical style change . That happened at the time. I dont believe it's a satirical song . Due to what Dean has said about his refusing to sing on it . Wanting to be apolitical and not get into the politics of the time in their feel good music. I also believe the american media chooses to prop up mentally ill people as some thing wonderful and genius as opposed to a brain injured person like Jan . By the way for some of you who are new to J&D . After the movie came out.
Jan and Dean were huge in the late 70's and early 80's . Their draw at the venues they played amusment parks , fairs .... rivaled even the acts that just came off their 15 min and were still a known name to the younger crowd. These guys were not just a 60's only act. Alot of new fans were born after Jan's wreck . And made at these concerts. And they were Jan and Dean not some fakes like most of the 50's 60's groups that you thought you saw in the last few years.

Mike

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2010, 09:07:07 PM »
I really appreciate the passion! 

Bitman

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2010, 10:11:34 AM »
I guess I should've clarified...it's not about making money for the hall...it's about making money for the record labels.  Most of the board members are affiliated with some label.  Inducting the Beastie Boys will make a ton more than J&D could for the labels.  Darlene Love has the Spector connection and sang on virtually all of his hits.  They can slap a RRHOF sticker on any Spector-produced CD with Darlene on it in any music store and maybe sell a few more copies. 

wintersdawn

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 11:23:04 AM »
Well, the Beach Boys sang about it first. However, surf music had been around in instrumental form before the BB's. I've read one historian who claims the first vocal surf song was actually Baby Talk. Jan & Dean definitely influenced the surf sound but the BB's were the first to write lyrics and sing about surf and drag. Jan & Dean were right behind them. I don't know if Jumping on the bandwagon is accurate because Jan & Dean were a big part of why surf music became so popular. It really wasn't an established style of music until after J*D and The BB's were both riding the wave. That's my opinion, anyway.

Thanks for the info.

2dean2

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2010, 01:27:34 PM »
Oh ok . Does anyone know if they did that [sticker thing] with Hal and Earl. You know featuring " RRHOF member Hal Blaine on drums"? And arent these record co's big multi mega corps that have a few labels under them? I must say i dont know who J&D are under. But I'm sure someone is invested .
I can hear The Bestie Boy's  Intro now "In 19?? these guy's had a big hit song Fight for your right to party. [I think thats the name] Then they did some concerts . And so we are inducting them. "

Mark A. Moore

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Re: RRHOF
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2010, 09:14:31 PM »
I must say i dont know who J&D are under."

The Nevins-Kirshner/Screen Gems/Liberty material '61-'66 is held by EMI-Capitol. They own both the masters and the publishing for that portion of the catalog. The publishing for Jan's outside compositions released on Colpix, Smash, and Del-Fi, is also held by EMI-Capitol.

The  earlier stuff '58-'61 is here and there . . .

The Jan & Arnie publishing is held by an underling of Universal.

Publishing for the Dore material is split between several companies, including Jan Berry's own Fiji Music.

For the  Carnival of Sound era material '66-'68 the masters are owned by Warner Bros., and the publishing by EMI-Capitol.

Lou Adler owns the masters for Jan's '70s releases on Ode and A&M. Jan's Fiji Music and others hold the publishing.